Mrs Ploumen, who is the Dutch Minister of Foreign Trade and International Development, has received a prestigious papal honour — Commander in the Pontifical Equestrian Order of St. Gregory the Great.
Mrs Ploumen is a founder of an organisation known as "She Decides" launched in 2017. This organisation among other matters promotes modern contraception and safe abortion.
As this papal decoration is a relatively rare honour, it is inconceivable that Pope Francis was not fully aware of the background of Mrs Ploumen prior to the award being made.
Wither goest thou Pope Francis.
Re: Lilianne Ploumen
Posted by Alex Caughey on January 21, 2018, 5:44 pm, in reply to "Lilianne Ploumen"
The author of Romans 3:23 was as near the truth, as one can reach, when he wrote:
“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
The Pharisee syndrome assumes that there are those who believe that they are...holier than thou...
Galatians 6:3For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. James 2:13For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
end
Nothing new here (part 2)
Posted by Faz on January 21, 2018, 7:48 pm, in reply to "Lilianne Ploumen"
: As this papal decoration is a relatively : rare honour, it is inconceivable that Pope : Francis was not fully aware of the : background of Mrs Ploumen prior to the award : being made.
Just look at the list of recipients, Bertus (here), and I think you'll see that there are plenty of examples of individuals who are questionable.
A couple of examples in the time of PJPII: - Rupert Murdoch. Hardly a beacon of 'True Catholic' morality! - Jimmy Savile. By the time he received the order there credible doubts about him.
Surely, to paraphrase your own observation, 'it is inconceivable that PJPII was not fully aware of the background of these and other recipients prior to the award being made'?
: Wither goest thou Pope Francis.
If there's a problem with this award, it's not new to this papacy.
An aside: internal dissent?
Posted by Faz on January 22, 2018, 5:22 am, in reply to "Lilianne Ploumen"
Joanna Bogle, a recipient in 2013, had this to say about Rupert Murdoch's award:
"It sends out the message that you can make a living out of something – soft pornography – that is regarded by the Church as sinful, and yet you can be awarded for it. The Knighthood of St. Gregory is supposed to be about honour and chivalry and splendour. To give it to Murdoch is ridiculous and wrong."
Rupert Murdoch. Hardly a beacon of 'True Catholic' morality! says Faz....that's a very bold and positive statement.
As I'm not aware of what 'a beacon of 'True Catholic' morality'is nor have I ever heard the expression previously...what is it?
Or is it a figment of your imagination, just something that you've made up so as to destroy it and thus win an argument?
And how does this imaginative beacon as you so positively see permeating True Catholic, relate in your matter of judgement with the good name of Rupert Murdoch?
And by the way,
With respect to Jimmy Saville, I note that award was made in 1990 and is at present subject to a request for annulment from the Archbishop of Westminster. Quite strange that you saw a need to mention him.
: Rupert Murdoch. Hardly a beacon of 'True : Catholic' morality! says Faz....that's a : very bold and positive statement.
Hardly either, Bertus.
For example, to divorce and marry is clearly not a beacon of morality in a Catholic sense, but Rupert had already been divorced once when he received the gong from PJPII and was married to Patricia (a Catholic apparently), then divorced her soon after!
Again, to paraphrase your own words: 'As this papal decoration is a relatively rare honour, it is inconceivable that PJPII was not fully aware of the background of Mr Murdoch prior to the award being made' (ie, your 'very bold and positive statement').
: As I'm not aware of what 'a beacon of 'True : Catholic' morality'is nor have I ever heard : the expression previously...what is it?
In the context of this subject, something like 'personal service to the Holy See and to the Roman Catholic Church, through their unusual labors, their support of the Holy See, and their excellent examples set forth in their communities and their countries (from John's post)'.
Rupert may very well fulfil this requirement despite not being an 'excellent example' in a Catholic sense.
Without knowing much about the lady, I assume this also applies to Lilianne Ploumen.
: Or is it a figment of your imagination, just : something that you've made up so as to : destroy it and thus win an argument?
LOL. You give me too much credit, Bertus!
: And how does this imaginative beacon as you : so positively see permeating True Catholic, : relate in your matter of judgement with the : good name of Rupert Murdoch?
Just to be clear, I meant True Catholic in the wider sense and not pertaining to this 'ere DB.
But, to cut to the chase, if your inclined to ask 'wither goest thou' of Pope Francis, history surely shows that such questioning in relation to this award, applies to his predecessors?
: And by the way, : With respect to Jimmy Saville, I note that : award was made in 1990 and is at present : subject to a request for annulment from the : Archbishop of Westminster. Quite strange : that you saw a need to mention him.
I made the point that there were credible accusations against Savile long before the award and it's 'inconceivable that the Pope was not fully aware ...'
certainly not from where you may have come from...although who really knows...but the question is, where am I going? I live in hope of where that might be, and having read your many comments and opinions over the years, I wonder as to whether it is the same place to which you aspire.
But then again, unlike you, I have made no moral judgement of anybody whether it is Rupert or Jimmy for that matter. Lilianne Ploumen is a global abortion advocate who promotes activities intrinsically evil. Her papal recognition further raises the question concerning a pope who appears to be redefining Catholic doctrine.
Apropos, “Hardly a beacon of ‘True Catholic’ morality! A sneering comment concerning this DB, directed to all those who over the years have been challenged by you in their defence of Catholic orthodoxy. Oh no, I didn’t mean it that way...says Faz. Rubbish.
--Previous Message-- : Rupert Murdoch. Hardly a beacon of 'True : Catholic' morality! says Faz....that's a : very bold and positive statement. : : Hardly either, Bertus. : : For example, to divorce and marry is clearly : not a beacon of morality in a Catholic : sense, but Rupert had already been divorced : once when he received the gong from PJPII : and was married to Patricia (a Catholic : apparently), then divorced her soon after! : : Again, to paraphrase your own words: 'As : this papal decoration is a relatively rare : honour, it is inconceivable that PJPII was : not fully aware of the background of Mr : Murdoch prior to the award being made' (ie, : your 'very bold and positive statement'). : : As I'm not aware of what 'a beacon of 'True : Catholic' morality'is nor have I ever heard : the expression previously...what is it? : : In the context of this subject, something : like 'personal service to the Holy See and : to the Roman Catholic Church, through their : unusual labors, their support of the Holy : See, and their excellent examples set : forth in their communities and their : countries (from John's post )'. : : Rupert may very well fulfil this requirement : despite not being an 'excellent example' in : a Catholic sense. : : Without knowing much about the lady, I : assume this also applies to Lilianne : Ploumen. : : Or is it a figment of your imagination, just : something that you've made up so as to : destroy it and thus win an argument? : : LOL. You give me too much credit, Bertus! : : And how does this imaginative beacon as you : so positively see permeating True Catholic, : relate in your matter of judgement with the : good name of Rupert Murdoch? : : Just to be clear, I meant True Catholic in : the wider sense and not pertaining to this : 'ere DB. : : But, to cut to the chase, if your inclined : to ask 'wither goest thou' of Pope Francis, : history surely shows that such questioning : in relation to this award, applies to his : predecessors? : : And by the way, : With respect to Jimmy Saville, I note that : award was made in 1990 and is at present : subject to a request for annulment from the : Archbishop of Westminster. Quite strange : that you saw a need to mention him. : : I made the point that there were credible : accusations against Savile long before the : award and it's 'inconceivable that the Pope : was not fully aware ...' : : :
: certainly not from where you may have come : from...although who really knows...
From 'certainty' to 'who knows?', Bertus?
: but the : question is, where am I going? I live in : hope of where that might be, and having read : your many comments and opinions over the : years, I wonder as to whether it is the same : place to which you aspire.
You're going a little off subject there.
: But then again, unlike you, I have made no : moral judgement of anybody
You just wonder if, 'as to whether it is the same place to which you aspire'. No judgement there; just 'wondering'?
: whether it is : Rupert or Jimmy for that matter.
But Lilianne Ploumen is another matter, eh?
: Lilianne Ploumen is a global abortion advocate who : promotes activities intrinsically evil.
Still not sure why she deserves your 'judgement' and others on the list get a free pass.
: Her papal recognition further raises the : question concerning a pope who appears to be : redefining Catholic doctrine.
So, by that same logic, we have to assume that PJPII 'challenged' Catholic thinking on the promotion of 'soft porn' as Joanna Bogle asserted below?
: Apropos, “Hardly a beacon of ‘True Catholic’ : morality! A sneering comment concerning this : DB, directed to all those who over the years : have been challenged by you in their defence : of Catholic orthodoxy. Oh no, I didn’t mean : it that way...says Faz. Rubbish.
Clearly you've made up your mind about that one, Bertus, so I won't bother to try to change it, suffice to say that if I wanted to 'sneer' at 'all those who over the years' challenged me, I would not be so subtle.