“I sent my Soul through the Invisible, Some letter of that After-life to spell: And by and by my Soul return'd to me, And answer'd: 'I Myself am Heav'n and Hell” ― Omar Khayyám
I'm not one to argue the theological niceties of Heaven, and Hell being aware that reward, and punishment are matters for the theoretical thinker to wax lyrical.
Edith Stein the Jewish convert who became a Carmelite nun and was murdered at Auschwitz wrote that God’s love is so great that it embraces even the most stubborn sinner.
Here's an article that discusses Rudolf Höss the commandant of Auschwitz and his final days:
Edith Stein was canonised by Pope John Paul II as St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross.
That St. Teresa Benedicta died in a man-made hell, a place of mass torment beyond anything conceived by the gospel authors it can be argued that her words reflect one of Our Father's attributes...love... expressed through forgiveness for all His children.
Our concepts of Hell beg the question: how can God not be present, when we believe Him to be omnipresent.
: : I'm not one to argue the theological : niceties of Heaven, and Hell being aware : that reward, and punishment are matters for : the theoretical thinker to wax lyrical. :
But, Alex, life requires us to also be practical thinkers, and wax rationally.
: : Edith Stein the Jewish convert who became a : Carmelite nun and was murdered at Auschwitz : wrote that God’s love is so great that it : embraces even the most stubborn sinner. :
Of course! But it is still possible to reject God’s love right to the end of life – to reject the forgiveness that He offers. God doesn’t force anyone to accept His forgiveness and His love.
I don’t regularly quote Pope Francis, but the same journal to which you gave the link regarding Edith Stein also carries this article: 3 Times Pope Francis warned about Hell
Well, John, it has been said that if theorists offering their ideas practised all that they preach the human race might be rewarded with a world much more in tune with Christ's invitation to love one another.
On a more practical note I have no idea what happens following death of the body. I'll leave NDEs to those who are content to be optimistic, and those who are certain that Hell exists might well find some comfort in drinking a mug of very warm cocoa to drown their pessimistic thoughts.
John Milton clarifies matters somewhat when writing that ones belief (on Hell) is subjugate to those experiencing it!
Alex, I guess you have forgotten, or never learned, or don't believe the story Christ Himself told in Luke 16:19-25 about the beggar Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man's reaction on finding himself in Hell was:
And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
Given that he was prepared to settle for a drop of water, I think a cup of cocoa would have gone down a treat.
Seriously, if you don't believe what Christ has told us, why do you bother posting all you do on this board? It doesn't seem to make sense.
--Previous Message-- : Well, John, it has been said that if theorists : offering their ideas practised all that they : preach the human race might be rewarded with : a world much more in tune with Christ's : invitation to love one another.
Incidentally, who said it? You?
And do you personally believe in Christ's invitation to love one another? If so, why your hesitation in believing in what Christ told us about Hell?
: : On a more practical note I have no idea what : happens following death of the body. I'll : leave NDEs to those who are content to be : optimistic, and those who are certain that : Hell exists might well find some comfort in : drinking a mug of very warm cocoa to drown : their pessimistic thoughts.
That's practical? It sounds like classic denial to me.
: : John Milton clarifies matters somewhat when : writing that ones belief (on Hell) is : subjugate to those experiencing it! :
If that's clarifying it, thank God you didn't find an author who might muddy the pool.
Another issue with Heaven and Hell is that they render morality redundant, for:
If I obey God out of desire for reward (Heaven) then I am not loving, merely mercenary.
If I obey God out of fear of punishment (Hell) then I am not loving, merely craven.
If I obey God by virtue of simply following orders (of the leader) then I have abdicated moral responsibility to another (The Nuremberg Defence).
The simplest Christian definition of God congruent with Jesus' teaching comes from 1 John 4.8 - 'God is love'. The immediate context is this: 'Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love.'
On a more cynical note it can be argued that the problems of reward, and punishment is not with believing for we all believe something, or another when pronouncing our opinions on the infinite. The problem here is with knowing. Here lies the real discussion. To know, and know not.
: I'm not one to argue the theological : niceties of Heaven, and Hell being aware : that reward, and punishment are matters for : the theoretical thinker to wax lyrical.
I'm no theologian either, Alex, and I know that we can create our own hell and contribute to creating 'hell' for others, but I can't reconcile the notion of hell with the way God is depicted in the New Testament.
Would a loving mother condemn a son or daughter to an eternity of 'hell' for even a life time of sin?
The shepherd goes to extraordinary lengths to find the lost sheep.
The prodigal son virtually wished his father dead and squandered his inheritance only to find his father ever-ready to forgive and, more than that, celebrate his son's return.
The notion of hell that I was brought up with, would have us believe that if the son had died before he had a chance to reconcile with his father, his 'eternal' journey would have been very different. This doesn't even look like a high standard of human justice, let alone divine justice.
The idea of 'hell' -- an eternity of outrageous suffering -- can't sit along side a God who shows mercy beyond our understanding.
Well, when you get to the Judgment Seat, Faz, be sure to let Christ know that he was seriously in error when he told the parable of Lazarus and the rich man as recorded in Luke 16:19-25. I'm sure He'll meekly accept your correction and be a much better Son of God in future.
Oh, but hang on - there's no future in eternity, just an everlasting present. . . . . Oh, what the heck - I'm sure you'll have some good advice for Him! I can't think what that will be, but that's me! I guess I'll just never make a "progressive".
. . . you might get there in time to overhear Pope Francis explain away the following words, if indeed, he actually said them:
“Souls are not punished,” Francis allegedly said. “Those who repent obtain God's forgiveness and go among the ranks of those who contemplate him, but those who do not repent and cannot be forgiven disappear. There is no hell — there is the disappearance of sinful souls."
I'd like to think it is a case of sloppy journalism; there is some evidence that it is, but if it's not, I'd not copy his explanation before having a good look around to see whether there is a heavenly assistant standing by handing him what looks like a Monopoly card reading: "Go to Hell. Go directly to Hell. Do not pass through the Pearly Gates. Do not collect a heavenly inheritance."
Best of luck!
--Previous Message-- : Well, when you get to the Judgment Seat, Faz, : be sure to let Christ know that he was : seriously in error when he told the parable : of Lazarus and the rich man as recorded in : Luke 16:19-25. I'm sure He'll meekly accept : your correction and be a much better Son of : God in future. : : Oh, but hang on - there's no future in : eternity, just an everlasting present. . . . : . Oh, what the heck - I'm sure you'll have : some good advice for Him! I can't think what : that will be, but that's me! I guess I'll : just never make a "progressive". : : : :
: Well, when you get to the Judgment Seat, Faz, : be sure to let Christ know that he was : seriously in error when he told the parable : of Lazarus and the rich man as recorded in : Luke 16:19-25. I'm sure He'll meekly accept : your correction and be a much better Son of : God in future.
LOL, can't help yourself, John. It must be tiresome walking around with boxing gloves all the time!
I'm not picking a theological fight here, I am just saying I can't reconcile the two views of God's mercy and justice. If God's is merciful and loving beyond our imagination -- evoking metaphors such as the mother and baby or the father of the prodigal son -- how is it that the notion of hell (eternal excruciating, suffering) consistent with that?
: Oh, but hang on - there's no future in : eternity, just an everlasting present. .
Yep. OK.
: . . . Oh, what the heck - I'm sure you'll have : some good advice for Him! I can't think what : that will be, but that's me! I guess I'll : just never make a "progressive".
Better now?
No biff intended here.
Posted by John on April 6, 2018, 9:32 am, in reply to "Biffo"
I don't think you can exonerate yourself from blame for my combative attitude, Faz. If truth be told, you have attacked me many times on this forum. In addition, I can rarely fail to be stirred to action by "progressive" attitudes because of the damage I feel they have done to the Church and to individuals.
However, given that you have indicated a desire to sincerely investigate a contradiction you perceive in the Church's doctrines, based on Scripture, I agree that, in purely human terms, there does seem to be a contradiction. A parish priest of my acquaintance has been quoted several times as putting it this way, that he can’t believe in “a God who creates people in order to send them to hell.” The pejorative “in order to” gives him away, in my opinion. Were he to express doubt about “a God who creates people, knowing that they will ultimately end in hell”, I would regard his questioning as sincere, as I am currently regarding your doubts. Please don’t look on that as condescension; the “currently” refers to now, in this post, as opposed to my former posts in which I was assuming the attitude of cynicism with which I have come to regard you.
The problem is, as I see it, that Christ Himself has stated that Hell exists. I don’t believe He was exaggerating, and even less that He was just waffling-on, when He spoke as recorded in Luke 16:19-31 (Douay-Rheims version)
[19] There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. [20] And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, [21] Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. [22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. [23] And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: [24] And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. [25] And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. [22] "Abraham's bosom": The place of rest, where the souls of the saints resided, till Christ had opened heaven by his death. [26] And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. [27] And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren, [28] That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. [29] And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. [30] But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. [31] And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.
So, I guess it comes down to whether you believe the Gospel, and accept the Church’s reconciliation explanation involving our free will. We are free to choose to accept, or reject, God’s love. That makes sense to me, but, as I say, I know of many to whom it doesn’t.
Without prejudice . . .
Posted by John on April 6, 2018, 11:45 am, in reply to "Fire, and brimstone"
April 5, 2018 (Rorate Caeli) – The purpose of the Church is the glory of God and the salvation of souls. Salvation from what? Eternal damnation, which is the destiny awaiting those who die in mortal sin. For the salvation of men Our Lord offered His Redeeming Passion. Our Lady reminded us of this at Fatima: the first secret, conveyed to the three little shepherds on July 13th 1917, began with the terrifying vision of a sea of hell-fires. If it hadn't been for Our Lady's promise to take them to Heaven – writes Sister Lucy – the visionaries would have died of shock and fright. Our Lady's words are upsetting and severe: "You have seen Hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart." A year before, the Angel of Fatima had taught the three little shepherds this prayer: "O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls into Heaven especially those in most need of Thy mercy."
: I don't think you can exonerate yourself : from blame for my combative attitude, Faz.
Seriously?
: If truth be told, you have attacked me many : times on this forum.
No so. I try hard not to engage in personal attacks. If you're provoked by that to be 'combative', that really is your responsibility.
: In addition, I can : rarely fail to be stirred to action by : "progressive" attitudes because of : the damage I feel they have done to the : Church and to individuals.
Again, your choice.
: However, given that you have indicated a : desire to sincerely investigate a : contradiction you perceive in the Church's : doctrines, based on Scripture, I agree that, : in purely human terms, there does seem to be : a contradiction. A parish priest of my : acquaintance has been quoted several times : as putting it this way, that he can’t : believe in “a God who creates people in : order to send them to hell.” The pejorative : “in order to” gives him away, in my opinion. : Were he to express doubt about “a God who : creates people, knowing that they will : ultimately end in hell”, I would regard his : questioning as sincere, as I am currently : regarding your doubts. Please don’t look on : that as condescension; the “currently” : refers to now, in this post, as opposed to : my former posts in which I was assuming the : attitude of cynicism with which I have come : to regard you.
I have noticed.
: The problem is, as I see it, that Christ : Himself has stated that Hell exists. I don’t : believe He was exaggerating, and even less : that He was just waffling-on, when He spoke : as recorded in Luke 16:19-31 (Douay-Rheims : version) [19] There was a certain rich : man ... one rise again from the dead. : So, I guess it comes down to whether you : believe the Gospel, and accept the Church’s : reconciliation explanation involving our : free will. We are free to choose to accept, : or reject, God’s love. That makes sense to : me, but, as I say, I know of many to whom it : doesn’t.
And I can only understand it in human terms and the existence of a 'hell', as I understand it, is inconsistent with the God of love (also depicted in the Bible).
Hell limits God's mercy to a human understanding and, even by those standards, it is far below the best of human love and mercy.
The example of the prodigal son who dies before he has a chance to reconcile with father illustrates my point. Both have committed grave sins but by chance, not because one was better than the other or more deserving, one seeks and finds forgiveness and the other one dies and goes to everlasting torment.
Hellova beat up?
Posted by Faz on April 7, 2018, 2:51 pm, in reply to "Actually . . ."
Given your own professed concern about those who have done 'damage' to the 'church and to individuals', I'm surprised you didn't look for a plausible, less headline-grabbing treatment of this story.
Pope Francis and hell
Apr 3, 2018 by Thomas Reese
Social media has been going crazy with reports that Pope Francis has denied the existence of hell. Even some mainstream media have picked up the story supposedly based on an interview by an Italian journalist.
Anyone who has followed the pope's talks and sermons would immediately know that something does not smell right here. The pope has in fact spoken of hell in the past in a way that clearly indicates that he believes in it.