Posted by jules on November 5, 2009, 4:01 pm

Still wrong, Jules Posted by Alan on 5/11/2009, 2:19 pm, in reply to "Re: Alan , but that is your post!" 204.154.242.150 Had I wanted my opinions to be dragged through the gutter here (or at that other place) I would have posted them here. I didn't. Exy brought it in with what I can only believe was the express purpose of calumny and degradation. You smell blood and jump into the fray as you, and a few others, so often do. Fortunately, you are mistaken if you think it is MY blood. If you want to discuss my posts at Catholica you are welcome to sign in and do it there. If, that is, you have the courage. I don't think you do. Some people talk about "JPII the Great". I consider him the Great Enabler of Abusers because he did NOTHING of substance to end the abuse and punish the guilty. By doing nothing he protected the guilty - which is the same as actively participating in cover up. He sat at the head of the church hierarchy, as a near-absolute monarch. Show me what he did to remove the perverted priests, bishops, etc from their 'ministries'. I'm not interested in words, only actions. If you cannot show me how JPII spent his time eliminating the source of the scandals, rather than diverting attention and/or sweeping it under the rug, please sit down and be quiet. If one is not a part of the solution, one is part of the problem. In my opinion, JPII was ineffective in dealing with the problem. Do you, also, want to be part of the cover-up? Alan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: # That's baloney. and scandalous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Posted by jules on 5/11/2009, 2:27 pm, in reply to "Still wrong, Jules" 114.77.192.201 You think he did nothing???? You are a liar!!There is plenty of documentation and letters written to the bishops about the urgency of the crisis. If you want to discuss this with me on TC come over there . Brian has refused my entry into his kingdom! 2002>>>>>>>>> Pope John Paul II's denunciation of clerical sexual abuse of the young as a crime and an appalling sin has put bishops in many parts of the world on notice that they must tighten procedures and be vigilant in applying them, church officials and experts say>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/25/us/scandals-church-statement-us-cardinals-after-their-vatican-meeting-pedophilia.html Post a Response

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Posted by father john george on November 5, 2009, 4:25 pm, in reply to "OK Alan , lets talk....."

--Previous Message-- : : Still wrong, Jules : : Posted by Alan on 5/11/2009, 2:19 pm, in : reply to "Re: Alan , but that is your : post!" : 204.154.242.150 : : Had I wanted my opinions to be dragged : through the gutter here (or at that other : place) I would have posted them here. I : didn't. Exy brought it in with what I can : only believe was the express purpose of : calumny and degradation. You smell blood and : jump into the fray as you, and a few others, : so often do. Fortunately, you are mistaken : if you think it is MY blood. : : If you want to discuss my posts at Catholica : you are welcome to sign in and do it there. : If, that is, you have the courage. I don't : think you do. : : Some people talk about "JPII the : Great". I consider him the Great : Enabler of Abusers because he did NOTHING of : substance to end the abuse and punish the : guilty. By doing nothing he protected the : guilty - which is the same as actively : participating in cover up. : : He sat at the head of the church hierarchy, : as a near-absolute monarch. Show me what he : did to remove the perverted priests, : bishops, etc from their 'ministries'. I'm : not interested in words, only actions. If : you cannot show me how JPII spent his time : eliminating the source of the scandals, : rather than diverting attention and/or : sweeping it under the rug, please sit down : and be quiet. : : If one is not a part of the solution, one is : part of the problem. In my opinion, JPII was : ineffective in dealing with the problem. : : Do you, also, want to be part of the : cover-up? : : Alan : :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: : : : # That's baloney. and : scandalous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! : : Posted by jules on 5/11/2009, 2:27 pm, in : reply to "Still wrong, Jules" : 114.77.192.201 : : : : : You think he did nothing???? You are a : liar!!There is plenty of documentation and : letters written to the bishops about the : urgency of the crisis. If you want to : discuss this with me on TC come over there . : Brian has refused my entry into his kingdom! : : : : 2002>>>>>>>>> : Pope John Paul II's denunciation of clerical : sexual abuse of the young as a crime and an : appalling sin has put bishops in many parts : of the world on notice that they must : tighten procedures and be vigilant in : applying them, church officials and experts : say>>>>>>>>>>>> : : http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/25/us/scandals-church-statement-us-cardinals-after-their-vatican-meeting-pedophilia.html : : Post a Response :

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Posted by jules on November 5, 2009, 6:24 pm, in reply to "correct julexs i have given here more than ample evidence of jp2 action against abuse"

...and Alan's too gutless to come here and say what he said about the Pope . And all the rest on CA can shut their mouths about things they really are ignorant on.

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Posted by father john george on November 5, 2009, 6:35 pm, in reply to " Brian Coyne enjoys slander, he thrives on it!"

--Previous Message-- : ...and Alan's too gutless to come here and say : what he said about the Pope . And all the : rest on CA can shut their mouths about : things they really are ignorant on. : : COYNE NIGHTMARE OBSESSION;MY NOVENA ANSWERED AT LAST] : :

Posted by jules on November 5, 2009, 7:12 pm, in reply to "CEPT COYNE-IGNORANCE IS NO OBSTACLE"

......... even some silly woman elsewhere is now making comments out blind ignorance.....how pathetic to thrive on misinformation and anti Catholicism! Very odd, actually it even may be a mental disorder.

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Posted by Alan on November 6, 2009, 3:23 am, in reply to " Brian Coyne enjoys slander, he thrives on it!"

Gutless? Not I. You seem to be projecting your own state onto me. Either that or you are telling lies again. As I told you over on Empty Pews [before Exy had his predictable and trademark temper tantrum and deleted everything; bullies like him do not react well when confronted], the proper venue for our continued discussion is at Catholica Australia. That is where I originally posted, and it is a board where neither of us would need to worry about the precipitous deletion of posts because some anonymous "Admin" disagreed with something. Certainly we have seen such censorship in the past few hours on Exy's fiefdom, Cath Fuse. That happens here, too. What a shame that supposedly "Catholic" ideas cannot stand up to scrutiny and so must, instead, be protected by fearful denials and immature behavior. Oh well, that is what the Inquisition has always been about, protecting the opinions of those with the power against any possible revelation, divine or otherwise. Possibly if you were to email Mr Coyne promising to behave in a civil manner and beg from him indulgence (a most Catholic concept, I'm sure) you might be granted permission to post there again. I would insist that he create a separate forum, accessible to all, for our discussion so as to protect you from embarrassing yourself in the main forum. I find no pleasure in watching others suffer their own foolishness. I am reminded of the Blessed Saint Martin Luther, called by God to lead the corrupt Western church back to the True Faith. Emperor Charles V opened the Diet of Worms on 22 Jan 1521 and Luther was summoned to renounce or affirm his views. [Goodness, doesn't that sound familiar?] A guarantee of safe conduct was issued to protect Luther on the way. Luther appeared before the Diet on 16 April and was questioned by an assistant of the Archbishop of Trier, one Johann Eck, regarding Luther's books and whether he still believed what the books contained. Being no fool, St Martin Luther asked for time to think about it. After much prayer and consultation, Luther returned the next day. Asked again whether he would reject his books and the alleged errors they contained, Luther replied: "Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe." [source of quotation: Theopedia.com] Private discussions of what to do about the brave monk continued over the next few days. At some point Luther left Worms, having been warned by angels in a dream that demonic forces were plotting his torture and death for daring speak up for God. The rest is, as they say, history. The Western church went its own way and God went God's way. As for John Geroge's unsubstantiated allegation elsewhere on this board, that he has provided ample examples of JPII's amazing effort to eliminate the clerical abuse of children, I will repeat what I said to you, Jules: I want to see actions, not words. Perhaps John can provide concrete examples where JPII dismissed priest, bishops, and above for their improper conduct. (The number of such dismissals should, naturally, be in accordance with the number of abusive clerics; one or two being obviously insufficient.) If so, I might reconsider my opinion about the former pope. However, if nothing is forthcoming other than the usual lies, character assassination, platitudes, and deletion of posts then that shall be taken as absolute proof that my opinions are correct. While I am not usually annals retentive, I have kept a copy of this post. It might come in handy someday, though I'm certain that anyone whose opinion really counts is aware that no one here is really interested in learning the Truth. Obedience to the myths created by the hierarchy in order to perpetuate itself is what is really important. Let me know when you are ready to continue our discussion, Jules! I will put in a good word for you with Brian so we can do it where appropriate. You understand, I'm sure, why it cannot be done here. Just as Luther could not stay in Worms where evil forces plotted against him for no reason other than that they knew he was right, so I cannot waste time and effort on a board where the executioner holds his or her finger expectantly over the delete key. When I was a child I spoke and thought and acted like a child. When I grew up, though, I gave up childish behaviors. Jules, it would be so wonderful if you and John and Exy could also grow up. Alan --Previous Message-- : ...and Alan's too gutless to come here and say : what he said about the Pope . And all the : rest on CA can shut their mouths about : things they really are ignorant on. : : : :

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Posted by father john george on November 6, 2009, 8:55 am, in reply to "Are you looking in the mirror, Jules?"

there is no anglican bishop in texas named alan

Posted by jules on November 6, 2009, 9:55 am, in reply to "Are you looking in the mirror, Jules?"

You are dead wrong about Catholica, one can not post there unless they agree with Brian's view. I know a few other people who have been refused entry. Why? What are they afraid of? Exposing of lies like yours for example? Exy is not a bully. It's people like you that come over with smug remarks and expect everyone else to bow down a worship your words. So what if your post on CA was transferred to CP, it was relevant to exposing you obvious bigotry. Hence your dummy spit. And no you are wrong about the catholic church all your disagreements about doctrines are your twisted views . All doctrines and dogmas have their foundations on the scriptures, and your hero Luther is just another dissenter and you a victim of a long-standing and inherited prejudice,which is intensified by a lack of real knowledge of what the Catholic Church really upholds and teaches. Luther was misguided and prideful. His objections could have been sorted out and taken a natural course for putting things right with regards to corrupts and human failings of some people in his time. There are Lutheran and Anglicans converting everyday around the world. Why? Because they finally have understood what the truth is about faith, the sacraments and worship and it's not in the protestant churches. Who BTW can never have a consistent authoritative interpretation of scripture due to their own subjective relativist view, not to mention one church contradicting another.. That does not happen in the Catholic Church. There is no contradiction, no alternative interpretation and no changes. That is exactly what attracts protestants back to the church. : I will repeat what I said : to you, Jules: I want to see actions, not : words. Perhaps John can provide concrete : examples where JPII dismissed priest, : bishops, and above for their improper : conduct. (The number of such dismissals : should, naturally, be in accordance with the : number of abusive clerics; one or two being : obviously insufficient.) Action was taken at the local level, priest were stood down, jailed, victims supported through counselling and church sued! I know a few here in Australia that have been jailed. What else do you want , blood? Other measures are in place and protocols are being followed . The Pope did all he possibly could to effect these changes and protocols. Unless you have evidence that he did nothing then please keep your dignity and not tell lies. You are the one that opened this discussion on CA so provide the evidence that he did nothing. Of course you will be met with agreement on CA they are anti hierarchy, anti tradition, anti anything to do with truth.

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Posted by Alan on November 6, 2009, 10:30 am, in reply to "you are a con bishop who canonises luther"

Looking among the Episcopalians will not find me since we are Anglican, not a part of the radical Episcopal church. Our diocese is quite conservative; we do not have a public web site. It might also help you to know that the diocese is not confined to Texas. Your continued if futile efforts to discredit me explain much about the kind of man you are. --Previous Message-- : there is no anglican bishop in texas named : alan : : :

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Posted by jules on November 6, 2009, 11:04 am, in reply to "Lookin' in the wrong places"

: : Your continued if futile efforts to : discredit me explain much about the kind of : man you are. : : hmmmm Alan, your continued efforts to discredit the pope explain much about the kind of man you are - shame on you!

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Posted by Alan on November 6, 2009, 12:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Lookin' in the wrong places"

Most of them do a good job of discrediting themselves. There are some exceptions - IMO not including the two most recent though there may be a chance yet for Benedict to rise to greatness. Longevity is not the same as greatness. Alan PS: I always give credit where credit is due. Where none is due? Well, use your imagination --Previous Message-- : : : Your continued if futile efforts to : discredit me explain much about the kind of : man you are. : : : : : hmmmm Alan, your continued efforts to : discredit the pope explain much about the : kind of man you are - shame on you! : : : : : :

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Posted by Alan on November 6, 2009, 12:43 pm, in reply to "Alan, you are wrong and you are victim"

What a shame that you allow your prejudices to control you. It is no wonder that you hate Catholica -- a place where discussion does not require the imprimatur of the anonymous ober-board-bishop would probably be terrifying to you. You are wrong about Brian, as you are wrong about so much else. He and I have disagreed mightily over the years yet I post there. I think you find it a sort of perverse badge of honor to be unable (or unworthy) to post on Catholica. Somewhat similar, perhaps, to how John George seems to consider it a good thing that he is banned from so many venues. Perhaps it is for the best. You have at least had the opportunity to know that not every Christian bows before the mythical image of JPII. I wonder if he is made a Saint that will make it more difficult for him on judgment day when Christ sifts him. : There are Lutheran and : Anglicans converting everyday around the : world. True. By the same token there are Catholics converting everyday to the Lutherans, Anglicans, and other Christian faiths. If you are trying to make some sort of a point here I cannot see it. No changes? You think THAT is what brings Protestant Christians to Catholicism? You have no idea how wrong you are. There will always be a few who for whatever misguided reasons want someone else to do their thinking for them. Yes, some of these will be attracted to to the pomp and circumstance of Catholicism. I know some high-church Anglicans who are there because they like the bells and smells. By no stretch of imagination, however, would they give up their pope-free Catholic faith for that of Rome. : What else do you want , blood? I'd be satisfied if the church that claims to be the one Jesus Himself founded would clean up its act regarding clerical abuse of children. So far there have been a few token gestures nowhere near sufficient to 'cleanse the temple'. Those who are guilty need to be removed from whatever level they serve. Their victims must be cared for and compensated for their suffering, without being forced to sue in the courts to attain justice. Is Christ not about justice, or do you think it OK to persecute the downtrodden? In my diocese it is written into canon law that any person accused of sexual or other abuse (of children or adults) is immediately removed from all duties and an impartial investigation begun. That means clergy, the church secretary or janitor, choir director, anyone. If the investigation reveals the slightest chance the accusations are true, then all information must be turned over to the civil authorities. If they decide to prosecute then we will cooperate fully. If convicted, all official relationship with the church is terminated. [That does not include membership, of course.] The bishop is not exempt from the requirements. In fact, any attempt by the bishop to hinder the process is grounds for immediate dismissal. Those are the sort of rules I feel the Catholic Church should adopt to deal with the 'scandal' - which still continues today. Absolute openness, absolute honesty, absolute cooperation with the authorities. This is not rocket science. If a small group of us conservative Anglicans can do it then surely the mighty Catholic Church should have no trouble. [There might be a sudden increase in the shortage of clergy and other ordinands which should more than correct itself over time as vocations are seen as more honorable.] Anyway, it was nice trying to talk with you. A conversation requires two-way communication, unfortunately, and there seems no way to get past the stone wall you have erected to keep your cherished beliefs safe. To bad. Alan

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Posted by jules on November 6, 2009, 1:08 pm, in reply to "Clearly you are uninterested in open and honest discussion"

: Those are the sort of rules I feel the : Catholic Church should adopt to deal with : the 'scandal' - which still continues today. : Absolute openness, absolute honesty, : absolute cooperation with the authorities. : This is not rocket science. If a small group : of us conservative Anglicans can do it then : surely the mighty Catholic Church should : have no trouble. [There might be a sudden : increase in the shortage of clergy and other : ordinands which should more than correct : itself over time as vocations are seen as : more honorable.] : I've being trying to say that , that is what the catholic church is already doing. It is transparent, it is acting and getting rid of the "filth in the church" as Pope Benedict has already stated. It's sad that you and others are so blood thirsty that you can't see the big picture. While the pastoral care of victims is paramount the Christian thing to do is to care for those who abuse as well. Most have been abused themselves as children and have a homosexual tendencies . This is what the whole world has learn only just recently about paedophiles. They are usually men, married or not and prefer prepubescent boys. This is what the church is stamping out, men with homosexual tenancies are not admitted into the seminaries. And whether you believe it or not these restrictions are in place now and are working. Pope Benedict has taken the extraordinary step , this year , of ordering a Vatican investigation of all religious orders and seminaries. This takes time and patience. So your dismissive attitude is quite sad and out of order. And one more thing protestant churches are in disorder over ordaining women and supporting same sex unions. These are not Biblical and not traditional so invalid theologically.

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Posted by jules on November 6, 2009, 1:10 pm, in reply to "The pope doesn't need my help."

Your claim again is unsubstantiated. --Previous Message-- : Most of them do a good job of discrediting : themselves. There are some exceptions - IMO : not including the two most recent though : there may be a chance yet for Benedict to : rise to greatness. : : Longevity is not the same as greatness. : : Alan : : PS: I always give credit where credit is : due. Where none is due? Well, use your : imagination : : --Previous Message-- : : : Your continued if futile efforts to : discredit me explain much about the kind of : man you are. : : : : : hmmmm Alan, your continued efforts to : discredit the pope explain much about the : kind of man you are - shame on you! : : : : : : : :

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Posted by jules on November 6, 2009, 1:17 pm, in reply to "Clearly you are uninterested in open and honest discussion"

There are Anglicans, Lutheran and protestant churches that support Abortion and same sex marriage . Are you in one of those churches Alan?

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Posted by Alan on November 6, 2009, 1:47 pm, in reply to "...and another thing...."

As I mentioned earlier, we are quite conservative, though not to the extent that we prefer the practices of yesteryear to those of tomorrow. --Previous Message-- : There are Anglicans, Lutheran and protestant : churches that support Abortion and same sex : marriage . Are you in one of those churches : Alan? : : :

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Posted by Alan on November 6, 2009, 2:37 pm, in reply to "Re: The pope doesn't need my help."

I am expressing my opinion. Opinions do not need to be substantiated. BTW, I am beginning to think English is not your primary language. Why? Because you do not seem to understand the meanings of the words. --Previous Message-- : Your claim again is unsubstantiated. : : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Most of them do a good job of discrediting : themselves. There are some exceptions - IMO : not including the two most recent though : there may be a chance yet for Benedict to : rise to greatness. : : Longevity is not the same as greatness. : : Alan : : PS: I always give credit where credit is : due. Where none is due? Well, use your : imagination : : --Previous Message-- : : : Your continued if futile efforts to : discredit me explain much about the kind of : man you are. : : : : : hmmmm Alan, your continued efforts to : discredit the pope explain much about the : kind of man you are - shame on you! : : : : : : : : : :

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Posted by jules on November 6, 2009, 3:08 pm, in reply to "Not really"

: BTW, I am beginning to think English is not : your primary language. Why? Because you do : not seem to understand the meanings of the : words. It's my third language, I'm multilingual. BTW you don't appreciate or understand the opinions of Catholics.

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Posted by jules on November 6, 2009, 3:26 pm, in reply to "No. "

: As I mentioned earlier, we are quite : conservative, though not to the extent that : we prefer the practices of yesteryear to : those of tomorrow. OK fair enough, but why do you 'bag' Catholics who prefer a more traditional style of worship, ie smells and bells? Why reduce their faith and worship to just smells and bells? The use of incense goes way back to OT times, even gifts of frankincense to Our Lord suggests merit in it. Connection with the past right down to the time of the Apostles gives depth, and IMO, more meaning than other liberal liturgical practices .

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Posted by father john george on November 6, 2009, 4:09 pm, in reply to "Lookin' in the wrong places"

--Previous Message-- : Looking among the Episcopalians will not find : me since we are Anglican, not a part of the : radical Episcopal church. Our diocese is : quite conservative; we do not have a public : web site. It might also help you to know : that the diocese is not confined to Texas. : : Your continued if futile efforts to : discredit me explain much about the kind of : man you are. : : --Previous Message-- : there is no anglican bishop in texas named : alan : : : : :

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Posted by father john george on November 6, 2009, 4:17 pm, in reply to "The pope doesn't need my help."

--Previous Message--

Posted by father john george on November 6, 2009, 4:22 pm, in reply to "Clearly you are uninterested in open and honest discussion"

Posted by father john george on November 6, 2009, 4:30 pm, in reply to "No. "

KEEP POWDER DRY HONEY --Previous Message-- : As I mentioned earlier, we are quite : conservative, though not to the extent that : we prefer the practices of yesteryear to : those of tomorrow. : : --Previous Message-- : There are Anglicans, Lutheran and protestant : churches that support Abortion and same sex : marriage . Are you in one of those churches : Alan? : : : : :

Posted by father john george on November 6, 2009, 4:43 pm, in reply to "ok"

ALAN YOU SOUND MORE LIKE AN HYSTERICAL DOTTY DEAN GET WITH IT-COMPENSATION TO VICTIMS IS A BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY-CLEAN UP YOUR ACT BABY-YOU STILL DONT SOUND LIKE A BISHOP --Previous Message-- : : As I mentioned earlier, we are quite : conservative, though not to the extent that : we prefer the practices of yesteryear to : those of tomorrow. : : : : OK fair enough, but why do you 'bag' : Catholics who prefer a more traditional : style of worship, ie smells and bells? Why : reduce their faith and worship to just : smells and bells? : : The use of incense goes way back to OT : times, even gifts of frankincense to Our : Lord suggests merit in it. : Connection with the past right down to the : time of the Apostles gives depth, and IMO, : more meaning than other liberal liturgical : practices . : : : : :

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